Todays the day...

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:08 pm

Odd day for BAR today, it could end up being just an ordinary day or the team could be heading home from Spain, out of F1. More likley they'll lose their Imola points but I wouldn't want to be in Nick Fry's shoes this morning..

Rob

K-D · Post by **K-D** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:14 pm

Seppuku

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:22 pm

I can't believe that people still think BAR could be thrown out. The fuel system they have is known to the FIA.
If they ran in Imola underweight then they'll be penalised for that.

The stewards didn't think so and so it is WRONG to call them cheats.
You are innocent until proven guilty.

Read somewhere that it is illegal to use fuel as ballast but is it ? Can anyone confirm ?

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:32 pm

You talk about them running underweight in Imola as if thats no big deal. To gain the equivalent lap time legally would cost millions, so knocking off a bit of weight is cheating at its worse. To the FIA it is about as bad as it gets. Running underweight by accident (and this was a lot underweight) would lose them the points, but if they are shown to have done it intentionally, there is every reason to have them thrown out. It's unlikley to happen but it is a real possibility. The FIA kicked the mighty Toyota out of the WRC in 1995, so they aren't afraid to do it !

Rob

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:46 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:You talk about them running underweight in Imola as if thats no big deal.

Rob,

Where did I say it is no big deal ? Or is it a habit of yours to quickly label others ?

I am aware that running underweight intentionally is a very serious offence. But again the stewards were convinced of the data provided.
It seems BAR have devised a way to use fuel as ballast. Is that illegal ? No one has answered that ?

I said and I repeat if my first post wasn't clear enough, BAR shouldn't be called cheats as the result of the FIA's appeal against themselves isn't known.

If they are found underweight they will be penalised with whatever punishement the FIA sees necessary.

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:56 pm

Quote:If they ran in Imola underweight then they'll be penalised for that. End quote.

I took that as taking it lightly. If they ran knowingly underweight then its exclusion from the championship.

Quote: Where did I say it is no big deal ? Or is it a habit of yours to quickly label others ? End quote.

You don't half get agitated quickly don't you ? Lighten up for goodness sake..

Rob

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:07 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:Quote:If they ran in Imola underweight then they'll be penalised for that. End quote.

I took that as taking it lightly. If they ran knowingly underweight then its exclusion from the championship.

Quote: Where did I say it is no big deal ? Or is it a habit of yours to quickly label others ? End quote.

You don't half get agitated quickly don't you ? Lighten up for goodness sake..

Rob

I see, I am supposed to write the way Rob understands!!

Perhaps you have something against BAR, I don't know but the appeal result isn't out and the FIA's own people cleared them. Unless you enjoy creating sensational headlines, no one should assume that BAR knowingly ran underweight

Don't interpret something I said your way and then tell me to lighten up

There are many ways to interepret what people say, yours is just one!

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:20 pm

Even if the car is found illegal,intentionally or unintentionally,it would be a pity of BAR is out of the championship.

Penalise them by stripping their points at Imola but not the entire season(which i doubt will happen )

This season is getting interesting, now that v could have 4 cars (Renault,Ferrari,Mclaren & BAR) with top speed and some suprises from Toyota & Williams.

This suspension for BAR from championship would ruin things not only for BAR but also for Mosely

(As if i care)

BTW,Mosely is facing the press on friday!!!!

Rob are u invited

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:38 pm

"Perhaps you have something against BAR, I don't know but the appeal result isn't out and the FIA's own people cleared them. Unless you enjoy creating sensational headlines, no one should assume that BAR knowingly ran underweight"

I find you hard to understand. All I did was say that todays the day for BAR, it could be an ordinary day or it could be the end for them. I further added that if they cheated then they were out. I made sure to use the word IF in my post but you seem to be unaware of this. Quite how you can take offence at this is beyond me, I am only reporting the facts as they are. If you take the time to read articles from sites like Autosport, Pitpass, Grand Prix then you'll see they say exactly the same thing - are you getting so irate with them too ? Nobody wants BAR excluded but IF (please note use of the word IF) they knowingly ran underweight then they deserve to be kicked out. Simple. As for me 'creating sensational headlines' I think you miss the fact that IF things go pear shaped for BAR then this is the biggest story to hit F1 in decades, and that is Autosports view - not mine.

By the way, the FIA's own people didn't clear them, the track stewards (an entirely separate and independent body did) but the FIA and their technical delegate did not agree, hence the appeal. The track stewards often screw things up, they are a strange bunch of part timers who change almost entirely from race to race. Remember the British Grand Prix cock up when Schuey 'won' in the pitlane. Well the steward who made all the errors that day was a cinema owner (I think he was called Nasir Hoosein), how on earth did he get the job ? Quite why the FIA don't have a permanent team of stewards made up of ex-drivers and technical directors (as suggested by David Coulthard years ago) who go to every race is beyond me. We wouldn't have this sort of problem if they adopted that measure and employed professional stewards rather than the guys they have now...

K-D · Post by **K-D** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:47 pm

The ?International Court of Appeal? will hear FIAs appeal of the San Marino Grand Prix result. Essentially this is the FIAs appeal against the stewards deciding not to disqualify the BAR of Jenson Button, despite his car being underweight when weighed without fluids.

The pros and cons of this case/matter will surely be debated for years to come, and after ruling tomorrow we will all be a little wiser. Certain facts are indisputable though:

1) BAR raced the San Marino Grand Prix with a car, which under certain scenarios could be running underweight.

There have been several clarifications on the matter of the weight of a car, and the FIA have rules several years ago that in order to establish the actual weight of a car, they would weigh it drained of all fuel.

This really lead to the only conclusion of the appeals hearing.

BAR Honda will be found to have willingly and knowingly raced a car, which were at times potentially underweight. This is a clear breakage of the rules, and no clarification can make this different.

I expect that BAR Honda race by Jenson Button will be disqualified from the San Marino Grand Prix. In addition to which the team will be fined heavily, and possibly will not be allowed to race for a certain number of Grand Prix?s.

It will not surprise me if Takuma Sato will be excluded from the results as well, but this is not a given. If the cars of Takuma and Jenson are not equally prepared fuel tank wise, he could get of.

There are immense potential for being thrown out of the 2005 championship outright and the black eye that this will inflict on Honda could mean that they withdraw from F1. That possibility alone most likely will mean that they will not be thrown out.

Someone at BAR Honda will be made a sacrificial lamb; my guess is that someone will be Nick Fry.

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:58 pm

Quite interesting K-D!!!

FIA cant afford Honda leaving the F1 championship,so mayb Nick Fry could indeed be in the firing range.

K-D · Post by **K-D** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:09 pm

Kapel wrote:Quite interesting K-D!!!

FIA cant afford Honda leaving the F1 championship,so mayb Nick Fry could indeed be in the firing range.

According to Crashnet (one of my least liked sources of "news") the FIA is going for BAR Honda to be excluded from the 2005 season....!!!!!

If they are aquitted all is different, but I have a hard time seing that. And I have a very hard time understanding how the Stewards could not DQ them at Imola.

There are no if's, or's, maybe's about being underweight. If the car is underweight under any circumstances, it is illegal PERIOD THE END.

Stay tuned.

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:22 pm

Can anybody imagine this mess if David Richards was still in charge ? Could this have something to do with why he left ? - not wanting to be part of it ?

Rob

(PS: That is just complete speculation before anybody gets upset - again.)

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:28 pm

Speculations are most welcomed Rob

But i doubt this was happening in 2004 otherwise some stewards would have pointed out or created a doubt sometime though.

I wonder who tipped the FIA

,apparently working for a rival team

(is the colour Red??? or Black & Silver???)

K-D · Post by **K-D** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:28 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:Can anybody imagine this mess if David Richards was still in charge ? Could this have something to do with why he left ? - not wanting to be part of it ?

Rob

(PS: That is just complete speculation before anybody gets upset - again.)

Somwewhere I wrote something like that 4 - 5 weeks ago. Management of a F1 team will and does influence the performance of the teams.

There is a reason that Red Bull is already looking like Stewart F1, after Ford/Jaguar have f..... it up for 4 seasons (or however long the f..... it up).

Dave Richards would not have allowed the current situation, and had they and been caught he would have plead a settlement already at Imola, for the team not to be thrown out.

The insistance against better knowledge will be BAR Honda's downfall (hubris??).

Unless of course they are aquitted, and then all I wrote was babbling of a Ferrari fanboy...