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Sato was quite well behaved this season. It may have had something to do with the Super Aguri not being fast enough though.

What was Renault's Engine boss Denis Chevrier best memory of the year ?

Without a doubt, the opening laps in Hungary, in the wet. Fernando gave a master class in driving an F1 car, and the only comparison I could find was with Ayrton Senna at Donington in 1993. It was an exceptional performance, he was on another planet. Even in the midst of the race, it felt like we should have been applauding this virtuoso drive.

Wasn't just me

from the Renault web site
http://www.renaultf1.com/en/team/people ... cm:3-52271

JayVee wrote:What was Renault's Engine boss Denis Chevrier best memory of the year ?

Without a doubt, the opening laps in Hungary, in the wet. Fernando gave a master class in driving an F1 car, and the only comparison I could find was with Ayrton Senna at Donington in 1993. It was an exceptional performance, he was on another planet. Even in the midst of the race, it felt like we should have been applauding this virtuoso drive.

Wasn't just me

from the Renault web site
http://www.renaultf1.com/en/team/people ... cm:3-52271

How nice. A totally unbiased opinion from a renault mechanic.

The Renault engine boss praised a driver that is leaving the team and going to McLaren.

He could have easily praised his car or to be even more biased his engine but he didn't.

And wasn't Fisichella going to get all the good bits and Alonso going to get all the gremlins after he signed with McLaren

coronado wrote:Congratulations to Alonso for his second WDC.
I was at the race and really enjoyed it... and the celebration party!

Comparing what Schumi, Senna and Prost had accomplished at the age that Alonso is today, 25 years, 2 months and 25 days, we found:
World Drivers Champ.: Alonso 2 Shumi 0 Senna 0 Prost 0
Races: Alonso 88 Schumi 38 Senna 18 Prost 4
Wins: Alonso 15 Schumi 2 Senna 1 Prost 0
Poles: Alonso 15 Schumi 0 Senna 3 Prost 0
Podiums: Alonso 37 Schumi 17 Senna 4 Prost 0
Points: Alonso 381 Schumi 109 Senna 22 Prost 3
Fastest Laps: Alonso 8 Schumi 7 Senna 2 Prost 0

These are facts... he has plenty of time to break all the records... and he has also the skills to do it (I don?t know about the will)
He helped Renault to came out of nowhere and will help MacLaren to go up to the top

To compare Alonso to Prost, Senna and Schumacher at the same age is not exactly a fair comparison. Prost only started in F1 when he was 25 and Alonso has already competed in 88 events! Any comparison using this as a basis will be totally skewed.

A better comparison would be to compare the drivers after their first 88 events (seeing as how Alonso has only competed in this number). Some interesting figures come out of this comparison.

........Age.....Podiums.....Poles....1st......2nd......3rd....DNF....% of completed races won.
FA..... 19........37............15........15.......14.........8........23......23
AP..... 25........37............15........21.........9..........7........33......38
MS..... 22........47............14........22.......15........10.......31......39
AS..... 24........40............36........18.......14..........8.......35......34

I included the number of DNFs as mechanical reliability has improved dramatically since the Prost/Senna and early Schumacher era, and therefore the chances of success have also improved.

While I believe Alonso is a very talented driver, the figures would seem to show he still has a way to go to catch and break records.

Consider also that MS (17 races), AP (46 races) and AS (32 races) all had Renault power for some of their early wins and successes.

Maybe it's not so much FA getting Renault out from nowhere, as Renault getting the driver out from nowhere.

GhoGho wrote:

coronado wrote:Congratulations to Alonso for his second WDC.
I was at the race and really enjoyed it... and the celebration party!

Comparing what Schumi, Senna and Prost had accomplished at the age that Alonso is today, 25 years, 2 months and 25 days, we found:
World Drivers Champ.: Alonso 2 Shumi 0 Senna 0 Prost 0
Races: Alonso 88 Schumi 38 Senna 18 Prost 4
Wins: Alonso 15 Schumi 2 Senna 1 Prost 0
Poles: Alonso 15 Schumi 0 Senna 3 Prost 0
Podiums: Alonso 37 Schumi 17 Senna 4 Prost 0
Points: Alonso 381 Schumi 109 Senna 22 Prost 3
Fastest Laps: Alonso 8 Schumi 7 Senna 2 Prost 0

These are facts... he has plenty of time to break all the records... and he has also the skills to do it (I don?t know about the will)
He helped Renault to came out of nowhere and will help MacLaren to go up to the top

To compare Alonso to Prost, Senna and Schumacher at the same age is not exactly a fair comparison. Prost only started in F1 when he was 25 and Alonso has already competed in 88 events! Any comparison using this as a basis will be totally skewed.

A better comparison would be to compare the drivers after their first 88 events (seeing as how Alonso has only competed in this number). Some interesting figures come out of this comparison.

........Age.....Podiums.....Poles....1st......2nd......3rd....DNF....% of completed races won.
FA..... 19........37............15........15.......14.........8........23......23
AP..... 25........37............15........21.........9..........7........33......38
MS..... 22........47............14........22.......15........10.......31......39
AS..... 24........40............36........18.......14..........8.......35......34

I included the number of DNFs as mechanical reliability has improved dramatically since the Prost/Senna and early Schumacher era, and therefore the chances of success have also improved.

While I believe Alonso is a very talented driver, the figures would seem to show he still has a way to go to catch and break records.

Consider also that MS (17 races), AP (46 races) and AS (32 races) all had Renault power for some of their early wins and successes.

Maybe it's not so much FA getting Renault out from nowhere, as Renault getting the driver out from nowhere.

Imressive, thank you.

Julian Mayo wrote:

GhoGho wrote:

coronado wrote:Congratulations to Alonso for his second WDC.
I was at the race and really enjoyed it... and the celebration party!

Comparing what Schumi, Senna and Prost had accomplished at the age that Alonso is today, 25 years, 2 months and 25 days, we found:
World Drivers Champ.: Alonso 2 Shumi 0 Senna 0 Prost 0
Races: Alonso 88 Schumi 38 Senna 18 Prost 4
Wins: Alonso 15 Schumi 2 Senna 1 Prost 0
Poles: Alonso 15 Schumi 0 Senna 3 Prost 0
Podiums: Alonso 37 Schumi 17 Senna 4 Prost 0
Points: Alonso 381 Schumi 109 Senna 22 Prost 3
Fastest Laps: Alonso 8 Schumi 7 Senna 2 Prost 0

These are facts... he has plenty of time to break all the records... and he has also the skills to do it (I don?t know about the will)
He helped Renault to came out of nowhere and will help MacLaren to go up to the top

To compare Alonso to Prost, Senna and Schumacher at the same age is not exactly a fair comparison. Prost only started in F1 when he was 25 and Alonso has already competed in 88 events! Any comparison using this as a basis will be totally skewed.

A better comparison would be to compare the drivers after their first 88 events (seeing as how Alonso has only competed in this number). Some interesting figures come out of this comparison.

........Age.....Podiums.....Poles....1st......2nd......3rd....DNF....% of completed races won.
FA..... 19........37............15........15.......14.........8........23......23
AP..... 25........37............15........21.........9..........7........33......38
MS..... 22........47............14........22.......15........10.......31......39
AS..... 24........40............36........18.......14..........8.......35......34

I included the number of DNFs as mechanical reliability has improved dramatically since the Prost/Senna and early Schumacher era, and therefore the chances of success have also improved.

While I believe Alonso is a very talented driver, the figures would seem to show he still has a way to go to catch and break records.

Consider also that MS (17 races), AP (46 races) and AS (32 races) all had Renault power for some of their early wins and successes.

Maybe it's not so much FA getting Renault out from nowhere, as Renault getting the driver out from nowhere.

Imressive, thank you.

I didnt realise until I researched it that all of them had renault power early on in their careers, maybe FA will have as much success as the others did after changing.

GhoGho wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:

GhoGho wrote:
To compare Alonso to Prost, Senna and Schumacher at the same age is not exactly a fair comparison. Prost only started in F1 when he was 25 and Alonso has already competed in 88 events! Any comparison using this as a basis will be totally skewed.

A better comparison would be to compare the drivers after their first 88 events (seeing as how Alonso has only competed in this number). Some interesting figures come out of this comparison.

........Age.....Podiums.....Poles....1st......2nd......3rd....DNF....% of completed races won.
FA..... 19........37............15........15.......14.........8........23......23
AP..... 25........37............15........21.........9..........7........33......38
MS..... 22........47............14........22.......15........10.......31......39
AS..... 24........40............36........18.......14..........8.......35......34

I included the number of DNFs as mechanical reliability has improved dramatically since the Prost/Senna and early Schumacher era, and therefore the chances of success have also improved.

While I believe Alonso is a very talented driver, the figures would seem to show he still has a way to go to catch and break records.

Consider also that MS (17 races), AP (46 races) and AS (32 races) all had Renault power for some of their early wins and successes.

Maybe it's not so much FA getting Renault out from nowhere, as Renault getting the driver out from nowhere.

Imressive, thank you.

I didnt realise until I researched it that all of them had renault power early on in their careers, maybe FA will have as much success as the others did after changing.

"To finish first, first you must finish"........had the other 3 had the same reliability the numbers would be very interesting.

Julian Mayo wrote:

GhoGho wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:
Imressive, thank you.

I didnt realise until I researched it that all of them had renault power early on in their careers, maybe FA will have as much success as the others did after changing.

"To finish first, first you must finish"........had the other 3 had the same reliability the numbers would be very interesting.

Yup, and I fear McLaren wont be as dominant as some of the teams the other drivers drove for in the past.
FA is going to need all the extra years he can get to break records.

GhoGho wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:

GhoGho wrote:
I didnt realise until I researched it that all of them had renault power early on in their careers, maybe FA will have as much success as the others did after changing.

"To finish first, first you must finish"........had the other 3 had the same reliability the numbers would be very interesting.

Yup, and I fear McLaren wont be as dominant as some of the teams the other drivers drove for in the past.
FA is going to need all the extra years he can get to break records.

With the new rules, teams like BMW, RedBull, and Honda are going to make it difficult.

GhoGho wrote:

coronado wrote:Congratulations to Alonso for his second WDC.
I was at the race and really enjoyed it... and the celebration party!

Comparing what Schumi, Senna and Prost had accomplished at the age that Alonso is today, 25 years, 2 months and 25 days, we found:
World Drivers Champ.: Alonso 2 Shumi 0 Senna 0 Prost 0
Races: Alonso 88 Schumi 38 Senna 18 Prost 4
Wins: Alonso 15 Schumi 2 Senna 1 Prost 0
Poles: Alonso 15 Schumi 0 Senna 3 Prost 0
Podiums: Alonso 37 Schumi 17 Senna 4 Prost 0
Points: Alonso 381 Schumi 109 Senna 22 Prost 3
Fastest Laps: Alonso 8 Schumi 7 Senna 2 Prost 0

These are facts... he has plenty of time to break all the records... and he has also the skills to do it (I don?t know about the will)
He helped Renault to came out of nowhere and will help MacLaren to go up to the top

To compare Alonso to Prost, Senna and Schumacher at the same age is not exactly a fair comparison. Prost only started in F1 when he was 25 and Alonso has already competed in 88 events! Any comparison using this as a basis will be totally skewed.

A better comparison would be to compare the drivers after their first 88 events (seeing as how Alonso has only competed in this number). Some interesting figures come out of this comparison.

........Age.....Podiums.....Poles....1st......2nd......3rd....DNF....% of completed races won.
FA..... 19........37............15........15.......14.........8........23......23
AP..... 25........37............15........21.........9..........7........33......38
MS..... 22........47............14........22.......15........10.......31......39
AS..... 24........40............36........18.......14..........8.......35......34

I included the number of DNFs as mechanical reliability has improved dramatically since the Prost/Senna and early Schumacher era, and therefore the chances of success have also improved.

While I believe Alonso is a very talented driver, the figures would seem to show he still has a way to go to catch and break records.

Consider also that MS (17 races), AP (46 races) and AS (32 races) all had Renault power for some of their early wins and successes.

Maybe it's not so much FA getting Renault out from nowhere, as Renault getting the driver out from nowhere.

If you think of it, apart from comparing two teammates (excluding Ferrari) in the same team at the same time, no comparison is really fair.

In your opinion you did a fairer comparison (BTW I do agree that using age alone isn't very fair) however you seem to ignore the competitivness of the cars they drove early in their career.
Surely you can't say that the Minardi of 2001 was as competitive as the McLaren of 1980 (Prost) or the Benetton of 1991/1992 (Schumacher) or even the Toleman of 1984 (Senna). I'd say the Toleman wasn't too competitve but still more competitive than the Minardi.

All those cars at least were capable of scoring points conistently while the Minardi on average scored a point every other year and that was when half the field retired.

Perhaps a comparison from their first win or first pole or first podium would be fairer I don't know but one thing for sure, you will always find flaws with stats

For your reference, here are the points scored for each of the cars mentioned as well as the points scored a year earlier

McLaren 1980 - 11 points, 1979 - 15 points
Benetton 1991 - 38.5, 1990 - 71 points
Toleman 1984 - 16 points, 1983 - 10 points
Minadi 2001 - 0 points, 2000 - 0 points

Even though I do believe that Alonso can break many more records if he continues racing until his mid 30's, it isn't just the numbers that make a driver. Despite all the amazing records from Michael, I will never rate him highly just like others may never rate Alonso highly despite the amazing records he has already achieved. At least I know that Alonso plays fair and to me that is as important as the numbers (if not more).
In the end though, it is the impression that a driver leaves race after race after race that makes you think that driver has what it takes to become one of the greats.

Only time will tell if Alonso will be considered a great and his actions on the track will determine that. At this stage he is certainly looking very good

On the reliability issue, if you look at the first two seasons for each you can hardly argue that the cars then were less reliable. In fact Alonso in his first two years had more retirements due to car failures than Prost and Schumacher. Only Senna had more. (And I counted Schumachers first 3 seasons and he had the most reliable cars with the most number of accidents!!)

Alonso

2001 - 9 DNF's out of 17 (2 were accidents)

2003 - 5 DNF's out of 16 (0 were accidents)

Total car failures: 12

Schumacher

1991 - 3 DNF's out of 6 (1 was accident)

1992 - 4 DNFs out of 16 (3 were accidents)

1993 - 7 DNF's out of 16 (4 were accidents)

Total car failures: 6

Prost

1980 - 4 DNF's out of 11 (2 were accidents)

1981 - 9 DNF's out of 15 (4 were accidents)

Total car failures: 7

Senna

1984 - 8 DNF's out of 15 (2 were accidents)

1985 - 9 DNF's out of 16 (1 was accident)

Total car failures: 14

Some very interesting stats from both of you.
It is interesting to look back and do the comparisons however no matter what the record books or stats say a true fan will always believe "their guy" is the best.
Stirling Moss is very highly rated and yet he never won a world driver's championship.
I guess it depends on whether you rate a driver purely on stats or whether you rate them on other factors as well.... fairness on and off the track.... etc.
People will always debate this issue and after all it is what makes sport so interesting.

jacfan wrote:Some very interesting stats from both of you.
It is interesting to look back and do the comparisons however no matter what the record books or stats say a true fan will always believe "their guy" is the best.
Stirling Moss is very highly rated and yet he never won a world driver's championship.
I guess it depends on whether you rate a driver purely on stats or whether you rate them on other factors as well.... fairness on and off the track.... etc.
People will always debate this issue and after all it is what makes sport so interesting.

Nice stats, thanks all.

It's the same with all individual (even team-)sports. Tennis is one prime example. They have a ranking system but some of the time lower-ranked players have a larger supporter base. All players that have a shot at the championship have proven themselves but in all fairness I think it is not very meaningful to try to figure out which one is the best.

Similar story goes for F1. There are some very talented drivers but one can only compare them fairly if all were to race in the same era and car. Same era cuz the reliability changes over time. Cars in the 80s suffered from different problems (or same problems of different magnitude and importance) than the ones now. Also, barring extraordinary situations, Alonso in a Minardi would not be able to compete against say Kimi in a Ferrari.

Fernando Alonso won the International Racing driver of the year award at the Autosport Awards beating his rivals again



Other winners were the Renault R26 for Racing car of the year, Lewis Hamilton for Rookie of the year, Oliver Turvey for the McLaren BRDC award and Jenson Button for British Competition Driver Award.

From Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/awards/2006/)