USA Review - The Heretic

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GhoGho
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Re: Bloody Right Margin

Post by GhoGho » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:56 am

Ed wrote:
Jim Watt wrote:Halloo out there in computer land:

How come suddenly the right hand margin stretched? to read the postings on the last pages of response to the Heretic, I had to roll my screen back and forth because, all of a sudden, the right hand margin rolled out.

Am I nuts? or the same people running this place that run Mushin's computers? :lol:

Jim Watt
No you are not nuts Jim,

The URL posted a few posts earlier was too long that it forced the right margin further to the right. We have placed a "Click Here" instead of the long URL and that should fix it.
Thanks Ed, appreciate it. (and apologize for any inconvenience caused) :oops:

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As One of 150,000 on site

Post by Jim Watt » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:04 am

:D I begin with a smiley face because I have actually enjoyed listening to my variously informed mates discuss (and discharge about :oops: ) the grand fiasco here in Indianapolis, my home town.

I really wish it had happened at Silverstone, or somewhere the fans could be trusted to do more than shake their fists at the television cameras. It would have been a lot more fun if Bernie had been imprisoned in a garage for 48 hours while enraged fans set about disassembling the grandstands!

Alas, in America, race fans are much more genteel. I, myself, simply walked out in disgust and headed to my favorite local tavern to drown my sorrows. Alas, the following morning, they returned.

Evidently, from all I have read here and from other well-informed friends, F1 machines and F1 racing is so finely tuned that there is NO SUCH THING as inter-changability. If the tyres fail, there are simply no substitutes.

If that is the case, and I am willing to accept that it is, then the tyre supplier for seven of the ten teams at Indianapolis knew that there would not and could not be an F1 race AT LEAST 48 HOURS before it was scheduled to start.

The local papers and media talked about the "looming" tyre problem as soon as the Toyotas started flying off the track. And by Friday night people were saying (off the record, of course, fearing libel cases) that there would be no race. Michelin, on the other hand, was insistent that the problem could and would be solved. By Saturday night my insider friends were telling me to stay home. I was sure they were exaggerating. Maybe Toyota would have to withdraw. Maybe a couple of the other teams who, like them, were running the tyres at lower --or higher, or somehow different-- pressures would have to withdraw --or change their set ups. Michelin said nothing. The Teams said nothing. The Speedway said nothing. The FIA said nothing.

So I, naively, did what you would have done. I figured they ["they" being the responsible parties] would find SOME way to race and that the tyre problem would simply be another complicating factor in the race. After all, aren't most F1 races full of challenges to the teams and drivers? I came to the track, on a beautiful day, expecting some beautiful and exciting driving.

I saw, on the tele monitors, various folks conferring mightily. But I also saw the cars placed on the grid. And I saw the drivers suit up. And I, and 150,000 on the grounds got ready for a race.

Michelin said nothing about pulling out. The Teams said nothing. The Speedway said nothing. FIA said nothing.

The cars went round. Seven teams drove back into the garages.

Since then, alas, Everyone has had All Kinds of Things To Say!! Everyone has had Solutions, and Problems with Other People's Solutions, and Villains to point the finger at, and Heroes to exonerate. The Fiasco has been FIA's fault. Michelin's fault. Bernie Ecclestone's fault. Max Moseley's fault. Naturally, it has also been Michael Schumacher and Jean Todt's fault! Who knows, it might have even been Frank Williams' fault, or maybe it was even Kimi Raikkonen's fault! I tried to read as many postings here as I could, but I'm sure I have still missed other blameworthy people. Who knows? Maybe it was my fault?

So do I care? Why am I still nattering on about this, anyway? Not because someone stuffed it. I don't care that Michelin stuffed it. I don't care that Max and Bernie stuffed it. I don't care that FIA failed to find a solution or proposed solutions that were unacceptable to drivers or mechanics or stewards or that Paul Stoddard felt personally threatened with public embarrassment. I care that Paul Stoddard didn't tell me AS SOON AS HE KNEW THE RACE WAS STUFFED!! I care that all these people refused to say the race was stuffed. And that they still refuse to say the race was stuffed.

I care that no one admitted that the drivers and the team managers and the stewards and the television commentators and the lawyers and their lackeys ALL KNEW THAT, BECAUSE F1 CARS ARE SO DELICATE AND FINELY TUNED IF THEIR TYRES (OR ANY OTHER PART OF THEIR PACKAGE) FAIL, THEY CAN NOT BE SAFELY ENTRUSTED TO THEIR DRIVERS AND THEY DIDN'T TELL THE ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO HAD ASSEMBLED TO WATCH THAT THERE WASN'T GOING TO BE AND THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RACE. THAT, IN FACT, THE RACE WAS STUFFED!

They didn't ask us to come back on Monday or Tuesday after a suitable solution had been found. THEY PUT ON A RIDICULOUS FARCE AND THEY CALLED IT A RACE. THEY EVEN AWARDED TROPHIES AND POINTS!!!

And it is the eve of the French Grand Prix, two weeks later, and no single person has explained why not one of these highly paid and well informed people failed to CALL OFF THE RACE AND REFUND THE TICKET PRICE

And am I supposed to believe it never occurred to anyone to do so? Am I supposed to believe that a football match can be entered into the record books when three quarters of the players fail to show up? If you SAY it's a match, somehow it IS a match? What kind of world is that?

Are you getting warm, dear readers (if I still have any!)?

It's a world familiar to me. It's so familiar it may be the reason I fled to F1 in the first place. It's the bloody one we all live in today. The one that is raising the global temperature and pretending that the Titanic isn't sinking. It's the world of the barrister and the bloody judge, the politician and his bloody spinmaster, the world of virtual reality.

What happened here and what will happen again (no matter what they say!!), is because lawyers and their lackeys are calling the shots.

In the courts, as you know, what matters is winning, not justice. Just so, today in F1 what matters is "winning," not racing.

:clap: :clap: :zzz: Jim Watt

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Re: As One of 150,000 on site

Post by Julian Mayo » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:56 am

Jim Watt wrote::D I begin with a smiley face because I have actually enjoyed listening to my variously informed mates discuss (and discharge about :oops: ) the grand fiasco here in Indianapolis, my home town.

I really wish it had happened at Silverstone, or somewhere the fans could be trusted to do more than shake their fists at the television cameras. It would have been a lot more fun if Bernie had been imprisoned in a garage for 48 hours while enraged fans set about disassembling the grandstands!

Alas, in America, race fans are much more genteel. I, myself, simply walked out in disgust and headed to my favorite local tavern to drown my sorrows. Alas, the following morning, they returned.

Evidently, from all I have read here and from other well-informed friends, F1 machines and F1 racing is so finely tuned that there is NO SUCH THING as inter-changability. If the tyres fail, there are simply no substitutes.

If that is the case, and I am willing to accept that it is, then the tyre supplier for seven of the ten teams at Indianapolis knew that there would not and could not be an F1 race AT LEAST 48 HOURS before it was scheduled to start.

The local papers and media talked about the "looming" tyre problem as soon as the Toyotas started flying off the track. And by Friday night people were saying (off the record, of course, fearing libel cases) that there would be no race. Michelin, on the other hand, was insistent that the problem could and would be solved. By Saturday night my insider friends were telling me to stay home. I was sure they were exaggerating. Maybe Toyota would have to withdraw. Maybe a couple of the other teams who, like them, were running the tyres at lower --or higher, or somehow different-- pressures would have to withdraw --or change their set ups. Michelin said nothing. The Teams said nothing. The Speedway said nothing. The FIA said nothing.

So I, naively, did what you would have done. I figured they ["they" being the responsible parties] would find SOME way to race and that the tyre problem would simply be another complicating factor in the race. After all, aren't most F1 races full of challenges to the teams and drivers? I came to the track, on a beautiful day, expecting some beautiful and exciting driving.

I saw, on the tele monitors, various folks conferring mightily. But I also saw the cars placed on the grid. And I saw the drivers suit up. And I, and 150,000 on the grounds got ready for a race.

Michelin said nothing about pulling out. The Teams said nothing. The Speedway said nothing. FIA said nothing.

The cars went round. Seven teams drove back into the garages.

Since then, alas, Everyone has had All Kinds of Things To Say!! Everyone has had Solutions, and Problems with Other People's Solutions, and Villains to point the finger at, and Heroes to exonerate. The Fiasco has been FIA's fault. Michelin's fault. Bernie Ecclestone's fault. Max Moseley's fault. Naturally, it has also been Michael Schumacher and Jean Todt's fault! Who knows, it might have even been Frank Williams' fault, or maybe it was even Kimi Raikkonen's fault! I tried to read as many postings here as I could, but I'm sure I have still missed other blameworthy people. Who knows? Maybe it was my fault?

So do I care? Why am I still nattering on about this, anyway? Not because someone stuffed it. I don't care that Michelin stuffed it. I don't care that Max and Bernie stuffed it. I don't care that FIA failed to find a solution or proposed solutions that were unacceptable to drivers or mechanics or stewards or that Paul Stoddard felt personally threatened with public embarrassment. I care that Paul Stoddard didn't tell me AS SOON AS HE KNEW THE RACE WAS STUFFED!! I care that all these people refused to say the race was stuffed. And that they still refuse to say the race was stuffed.

I care that no one admitted that the drivers and the team managers and the stewards and the television commentators and the lawyers and their lackeys ALL KNEW THAT, BECAUSE F1 CARS ARE SO DELICATE AND FINELY TUNED IF THEIR TYRES (OR ANY OTHER PART OF THEIR PACKAGE) FAIL, THEY CAN NOT BE SAFELY ENTRUSTED TO THEIR DRIVERS AND THEY DIDN'T TELL THE ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO HAD ASSEMBLED TO WATCH THAT THERE WASN'T GOING TO BE AND THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RACE. THAT, IN FACT, THE RACE WAS STUFFED!

They didn't ask us to come back on Monday or Tuesday after a suitable solution had been found. THEY PUT ON A RIDICULOUS FARCE AND THEY CALLED IT A RACE. THEY EVEN AWARDED TROPHIES AND POINTS!!!

And it is the eve of the French Grand Prix, two weeks later, and no single person has explained why not one of these highly paid and well informed people failed to CALL OFF THE RACE AND REFUND THE TICKET PRICE

And am I supposed to believe it never occurred to anyone to do so? Am I supposed to believe that a football match can be entered into the record books when three quarters of the players fail to show up? If you SAY it's a match, somehow it IS a match? What kind of world is that?

Are you getting warm, dear readers (if I still have any!)?

It's a world familiar to me. It's so familiar it may be the reason I fled to F1 in the first place. It's the bloody one we all live in today. The one that is raising the global temperature and pretending that the Titanic isn't sinking. It's the world of the barrister and the bloody judge, the politician and his bloody spinmaster, the world of virtual reality.

What happened here and what will happen again (no matter what they say!!), is because lawyers and their lackeys are calling the shots.

In the courts, as you know, what matters is winning, not justice. Just so, today in F1 what matters is "winning," not racing.

:clap: :clap: :zzz: Jim Watt
I concur :evil:
The Mountain is a savage Mistress.

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Post by Kapel » Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:26 pm

Well said JIM. 8)

I think everyone in this forum were pointing to some1 or the other for the farsce,but everyone felt the pain,anger & disappointment of the 150,000 spectators there.
An F1 Idiot!!!

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Post by JayVee » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:31 pm

Good post Jim and I too was frustrated given that I taped the race, avoided listening or watching any news for several hours then found out that only 6 cars were racing. I am sure it wasn't as bad as the frustration for those attending the event. But to be fair, there were signs. I remember reading on the Renault site something about them not racing if Michelin say it isn't safe and that was on Saturday.
But what would you have done ? Wouldn't you be looking for the best solution until the very last minute without creating panic.
Perhaps F1 was lucky that this problem happened on Friday. Had it occured during the race we may have had another black Sunday.

It is just sad that F1 is suffering at the moment from all the politics as I am sure they would have found a solution if all teams where on good terms!!

BTW: I read that an Indy 500 was cancelled or postponed some time ago due to safety ? What happened then ?
I'm back and yes supporting Alonso "The Cute" in the Ferrari!

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Post by Julian Mayo » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:40 pm

JayVee wrote:Good post Jim and I too was frustrated given that I taped the race, avoided listening or watching any news for several hours then found out that only 6 cars were racing. I am sure it wasn't as bad as the frustration for those attending the event. But to be fair, there were signs. I remember reading on the Renault site something about them not racing if Michelin say it isn't safe and that was on Saturday.
But what would you have done ? Wouldn't you be looking for the best solution until the very last minute without creating panic.
Perhaps F1 was lucky that this problem happened on Friday. Had it occured during the race we may have had another black Sunday.

It is just sad that F1 is suffering at the moment from all the politics as I am sure they would have found a solution if all teams where on good terms!!

BTW: I read that an Indy 500 was cancelled or postponed some time ago due to safety ? What happened then ?
I note with just a tad of indignation that you conveniently ignore those of us who are committed to our beloved F1 and make the effort to be in front of the ol' plasma at 3am :crush: :evil:
The Mountain is a savage Mistress.

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Post by Byron Forbes » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:05 pm

Gee, I thought we were all moving on to France. :?:

Anyway, I think the reason we saw no chicane was Ferrari. I'll bet if Ferrari agreed to that then it would have happened. All the other idiotic proposals amounted to a change in the bloody track too so legalities were a possibility that way as well. Todt said no, so the highly bribed by Ferrari FIA said no - simple as that!

It just shows how pitiful the FIA are anyway. WTF are they doing asking the teams anyway. Consult and get input and opinions - yes. Ask if it's ok with them - no. You TELL the teams what's happening. The FIA did nothing and nothing is exactly what they're worth!

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Post by Julian Mayo » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:09 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:Gee, I thought we were all moving on to France. :?:

Anyway, I think the reason we saw no chicane was Ferrari. I'll bet if Ferrari agreed to that then it would have happened. All the other idiotic proposals amounted to a change in the bloody track too so legalities were a possibility that way as well. Todt said no, so the highly bribed by Ferrari FIA said no - simple as that!

It just shows how pitiful the FIA are anyway. WTF are they doing asking the teams anyway. Consult and get input and opinions - yes. Ask if it's ok with them - no. You TELL the teams what's happening. The FIA did nothing and nothing is exactly what they're worth!
Cos I am a nice fella, I just raced over to tell you the rest of us are on the France thread. Q is happening, bye :lol:
The Mountain is a savage Mistress.

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Post on behalf of Fred M

Post by Ed » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:59 am

Reader Fred M says:

Just want to say that i agree to what The Heretic have to say in Issue 11. FIA are responsible in destroying the sport that have been lovely for some years except these two years. They blame Scuderia Ferrari and Michael Schumacher for conquering the sport. I blame it on the other teams for failing to build a package strong enough to beat him. Feeling sad when i watch US Grand Prix 2005 and i know that US fans are as mad as i am. I a fan of motorcycle racing (Wayne Rainey and Mick Doohan era) before i fall in love to Formula One. It was during the days when Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher fight to win. Since that day, i never missed a live or delayed telecast of a Grand Prix. Sorry to say, i have missed some races this year because i don't see any future in Formula One if FIA continue to plague it with politicking and greed. I may go back to my old days again n watch MotoGP instead. No matter what rules the FIA put in, those cars are not going to slow down. The FIA always thinks that racing is the art of speeding away from your competitors. To me, racing is the art of braking. See what Michael Schumacher did when he conquered Formula One for some years.

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Post by JayVee » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:36 am

julian mayo wrote: I note with just a tad of indignation that you conveniently ignore those of us who are committed to our beloved F1 and make the effort to be in front of the ol' plasma at 3am :crush: :evil:
No julian I am not ignoring. I am sure those who stayed up/woke up to watch would have been frustrated as well. I was just saying what I felt :alright:
If I had to wake up at 3 AM to watch 6 cars go round I would be very furious :furious:
I'm back and yes supporting Alonso "The Cute" in the Ferrari!

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Post by Julian Mayo » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:12 pm

JayVee wrote:
julian mayo wrote: I note with just a tad of indignation that you conveniently ignore those of us who are committed to our beloved F1 and make the effort to be in front of the ol' plasma at 3am :crush: :evil:
No julian I am not ignoring. I am sure those who stayed up/woke up to watch would have been frustrated as well. I was just saying what I felt :alright:
If I had to wake up at 3 AM to watch 6 cars go round I would be very furious :furious:
Thank you Mam :lol:
The Mountain is a savage Mistress.

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Thanks, Ed

Post by Jim Watt » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:23 am

:D Thanks, Ed. It's good to know you are paying attention. I guess you have fixed the problem (of the funny right margin) even though I haven't a clue as to either [a] how it happened in the first place, and how you fixed it. :oops:

Jim

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Thanks Mates!

Post by Jim Watt » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:49 am

:oops: just cleaning up my emails and I got my notifications in reverse order. So answered Ed about my query re: the funny right hand margins, before I got the notification about folks responding to my narrative of the Indy fiasco.

One of you asked about a cancelled Indy 500, I think. Yes. The 500, as many of you know, is run on racing slicks (no rain tyres), so whenever the weather fails to cooperate, the race is post-poned. One year, I forget which one, now, it was put off 3 different times! Finally, though, the sun came out and they called the race about an hour before they lined up. I remember going out to the track to be greeted by safety people waving everyone in without checking for tickets. The stands were only about one quarter full; you could sit pretty much where you liked. And the race was a good one, too.

Point here being that everyone who buys a ticket to the 500 KNOWS that the race is held only when the weather permits. F1 (up to this year at least) has always promised a race on schedule. And I agree with those (that is to say, pretty much all of us!) who suggest that the governing body needs to be able to keep to that schedule. Of course race fans don't want a race at the risk of the drivers' safety; what made us mad was being lied to, not missing a race.

As to the Jean Todt/Ferrari business: Ferrari didn't make F1; F1 made Ferrari, but there's a very real sense in which neither one, really, can manage without the other. In America, the feud between the Indianapolis Race Course (owned by the Hulman/George family) and the owners and manufacturers of "Indy Cars" is similar. I hope that the result of the Ferrari / F1 struggle is not the same as the result of the Tony George / CART Racing organization. What has happened is that both sides have suffered and fans have moved on to NASCAR, a kind of "racing as entertainment" venue. I fear the manufacturers preparing to split off after the Concorde Agreement expires have something very much like this in mind. Ah, but that's for another thread on another day.

Thanks for the feedback mates!

Jim Watt

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Re: Thanks Mates!

Post by JayVee » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:58 pm

Jim Watt wrote:One of you asked about a cancelled Indy 500, I think. Yes. The 500, as many of you know, is run on racing slicks (no rain tyres), so whenever the weather fails to cooperate, the race is post-poned. One year, I forget which one, now, it was put off 3 different times! Finally, though, the sun came out and they called the race about an hour before they lined up. I remember going out to the track to be greeted by safety people waving everyone in without checking for tickets. The stands were only about one quarter full; you could sit pretty much where you liked. And the race was a good one, too.
That was me :D

mlittle reminded me of the race I was thinking about. It was the CART race in Texas which was called off because of the gforces. The article also mentioned another race (Michigan 85) which was called off due to bad tyres (http://espn.go.com/rpm/cart/2001/0429/1188368.html)

So it wasn't a first but because of all the politics it wasn't managed properly.

BTW: Did you check out the Forum on IRL ? mlittle is doing a good job there!
I'm back and yes supporting Alonso "The Cute" in the Ferrari!

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the TOO BANKED Texas Speedway

Post by Jim Watt » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:46 am

:bounceg: :compute:

Oh yes, Jay Vee; I remember the Texas Speedway problem. The drivers had a meeting and admitted that they were blacking out on the turns because of the G forces. Everyone decided to back down on it. I think, though, it was the CART boys, not the IRL crew. And this decision was driver driven, not the result of some supplier fiasco.

Anyway thanks for the response. :lol: :lol:

I'll check out the IRL forum; thanks for the tip.

Jim Watt

p.s. I put the bloody bouncing emoticon in the beginning because I haven't a clue what it is supposed to mean. Sort of a sign of my own "black out" I guess. 8)

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