The 2008 Bahrain Formula 1 Grand Prix Thread

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Moderators: cmlean, Ed, The Qualiflyer, The Heretic

Driver of the day ?

Felipe Massa
7
37%
Kimi Raikkonen
1
5%
Robert Kubica
2
11%
Nick Heidfeld
3
16%
Heikki Kovalainen
0
No votes
Jarno Trulli
2
11%
Mark Webber
3
16%
Nico Rosberg
0
No votes
Fernando Alonso
1
5%
Giancarlo Fisichella
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 19

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Post by F1greyhound » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:38 am

JAYVEE,

youre right on FERNANDO, however it remains to be seen where he can bring the team during the season as others are improving also...

Re. team tactics I didnt say it should be done in GP 6 or sometime particular, I just feel it will be practised always by most teams come the time one driver has a clear chance winning the WDC and the other not. Last year MCLAREN gave away the title but most CEOs in any business would have had to take their hat for that....Jean Todt was a more successful leader than Ron Dennis will ever be if he doesnt understand the basics and if he is not capable of handling the drivers properly. However FERNANDO had his fair share in KIMI becoming 2007 WDC instead of LEWIS..

I dont see a contradiction between great sport and "reasonable" team tactics. E.g. when RUBENS moved over for MICHAEL in a scandalous way a few years back in Austria that was totally unnecessary and stupid but so was last years Brazil result from MCLAREN view, wasn`t it?

Cheers mate
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Post by Jim Watt » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:49 am

:D Thanks, Ed, for your kind response to my (rather snappish) post. I'm pretty sure you know I wasn't ACTUALLY peeved, just venting I will now vote for Fernando for Drive of the day thanks to your courteous amendment.

It won't be the first time, actually, that I have voted for the Spaniard; I think he is the REAL thing, that is a RACER, along with Kimi and Michael and Mark Webber. And, in time, I may add Kubica to the list.

What, you ask (and rightly so) do I mean by a "racer"? Simple, someone who loves racing even more than winning. Michael's last race in Brazil is a good example: he always enjoyed contending with the car, the circuit and the other drivers more than anything else.

Lewis Hamilton may also be in this group one day; but I think he's rather too cerebral (too Alain Prost) for my taste. I LIKE him well enough --just like I am fond of Felipe and Jesen Button-- but so far he doesn't get me up out of my chair shaking my fist and saying, "Yes! that's it, lad; you've got him; you've got him; now leave him scratching his head and eating your dust!"

I think, by the by, that F1 Greyhound is correct about Jean Todt not leap frogging Michael as early as race three; not, at any rate, when Ferrari is set for 18 points. On the other hand, as Rubens would be glad to testify, there were plenty of times Ferrari made sure of Michael's WDC points at the Brazilian's expense.

Jay Vee thinks this sort of behavior is not sporting some how. And I think that's correct --as far as it goes. But the WDC is a COMMERCIAL PRIZE, not a sporting one; just as the salary and contractual agreements between drivers and teams are business matter, not a personal. When you sign up, that is, to support Michael, you can't complain about having to support Michael. Maybe Felipe DIDN'T sign up to support Kimi (and probably Kimi doesn't care one way or the other) but last year when it was clear that only Kimi had a chance, he (Felipe) made no secret of his supporting role. If Ferrari were completely neutral about this, they could (like Ron Dennis) have seen their drivers 'eliminate' one another ... and paid for it later.

You can't tell me that the sponsor's bill for McLaren this year didn't reflect the fact that they DIDN'T have the WDC in their team.

Maybe Mercedes Benz didn't care. Maybe the people at Stuttgart are more comfortable with a Finn than a Spaniard, but last I heard it was RON DENNIS whose job security has taken a hit.

Anyway; thanks for reading and commenting. I really enjoy the posts on this list since most of my peers here in Indianapolis are more interested in American Open Wheel racing and NASCAR than they are in what they call the 'FORM YULE UNO high speed parade'.

Jim Watt
My Racing Gods: Fangio, Vukovich; Senna & Mears --all racers all the time; graceful winners & generous in defeat, but never giving up!!

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Post by F1greyhound » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:46 am

Jim, thanks for the reasonable post.

However I can`t but remind you of the fact that MICHAELs colleagues did not have to move over as often as it appears reading some people`s comments. It is a bit of a hoax really, like something being repeated over and over to appear as "the truth"....

The truth is, you will find it difficult to name even 5 GPs when RUBENS or whoever actually moved over for MICHAEL. How many GPs did MICHAEL race in? Was it over 200? Did he drive multi-WDC NELSON PIQUET into retirement in his 1st season or was that his famous "No.1 status" already? Did he actually need No.1 status to the same degree FERNANDO asked for it last year..? One thing is, many people including some ex drivers were always jealous about MICHAELs skills...

Now for this year we have already heard stupid negative comments from ex GP drivers, even ex WDCs on FELIPE, KIMI, and LEWIS. Do we need this? Jeez, they are all great or even fantastic drivers and doing their best..No doubt LEWIS will bounce back just like FELIPE did. And anyone who still doesnt see how fast FELIPE is, after his 2 seasons alongside MICHAEL and KIMI, and consequently thinks KIMI doesnt have his day when beaten by FELIPE hasn`t done his homework properly..
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Post by JayVee » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:25 pm

F1greyhound.

I see that you are asking people not repeat something over and over about Michael and his demanded number one status yet you quickly 'assume' what the british media kept spinning about what Fernando wanted last year.

Do you actually know what Fernando wanted last year ?

For all I know he wanted 'equality' and not preference.

When the team you are driving for blatantly supports a rookie over a World Champion, you won't be comfortable. I think this issue was discussed many times before but when your own team boss says publicly we are fighting against Fernando I don't think the situation with Fernando and McLaren can be compared with any other.

Michael's situation is totally different. The fact is he clearly had the number one status whether it was by demand, by grant or somewhere in between, he had that and both himself and his team-mate knew that and so things were setup from the start

Your comment: RUBENS moved over for MICHAEL in a scandalous way a few years back in Austria that was totally unnecessary and stupid but so was last years Brazil result from MCLAREN view, wasn`t it?

I think things were bad in McLaren far earlier than Brazil so whatever happened in Brazil was a result of the 16 earlier rounds of bad management.
I'm back and yes supporting Alonso "The Cute" in the Ferrari!

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Post by F1greyhound » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:24 pm

Well, thats arguable if FERNANDO just wanted equality last year, if that was the case he failed to leave this impression..:-).

IMO he certainly had equality untill he started to behave like a child, he obviously found it difficult to handle the situation that the rookie was able to beat him - the situation in Hungary where he prevented LEWIS from doing another stop in Q3 was a first highlight of an awkward fight... I think FERNANDO learned from this and hopefully will be prepared better for similar situations in the future. NELSON JR. seems to be no threat anyway...;-)
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Post by JayVee » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:54 pm

I think we are moving away from the topic but again it seems you are treating Fernando by what the media and the McLaren media machine is telling you yet you defend Michael and deny most of the media accusations about his demand for a number 1 status.

Specifically on what happened in Hungary, come on, there were already a few public spats well before that. In fact I think things atarted from Malaysia or even Australia.

Alonso was doing all the sharing yet the team were backing, supporting and favouring Hamilton. Alonso did not expect this so he did what he felt is right. I am not necessarily supporting his action but remember that it was Hamilton who ignored an agreement and that is when Alonso took revenge and Hamilton then went and complained about his team-mate and team to the FIA.

Yes it isn't the best behaviour but they need to be managed but the way Hamilton was allowed to benefit from Alonso yet not treat him with respect and having the whole team support him while they neglected Alonso who is the World Champion x 2, that is what Alonso had to deal with.

You can always blame Alonso, perhaps I would too, I would blame him for being open and honest and perhaps a bit naive about going to McLaren. He should have gone there on his own terms and that doesn't mean preferred treatment but given respect when it is due.

Just watch how the season unfolds and watch the tumbling of Lewis Hamilton in a team that is struggling for direction at all levels and watch Alonso just get on with the job and get the best out of a slow car. This year will be great for him
I'm back and yes supporting Alonso "The Cute" in the Ferrari!

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Post by Jim Watt » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:23 am

:D thanks for your response, F1greyhound:

I will defer to your almost certainly better memory about the numbers of times Michael was 'given' a pass over his team mate. Suffice it to say that his many detractors are, as you say, probably WAY over-estimating the number.

But, anyway, in order for a win to be 'handed to' him, a driver has to be already running in second; a place many F1 drivers RARELY ever see!

And on that subject (being a Number Two), I seem to remember Eddie Irvine saying, in relation to the time Michael broke his leg in Canada and so was, in the last races, mathematically eliminated, that not only was Michael the best Number One driver in F1, he was also the best Number Two! I believe Eddie was referring to Michael's ably 'defending' him from some faster cars behind him on the circuit.

I agree with you that Felipe is fast. And also that it is a little silly to suggest that ANY driver can win a WDC simply by bending the rules or demanding preferential treatment.

And I am glad that --tho he has other weaknesses-- such behavior is NOT Kimi's style; he tends to earn his points (or not) by out-breaking his opponents --or simply driving around them on the outside.

But Jay Vee is correct that the English speaking Media cannot (apparently) SEE how good Fernando actually is (and they also forget how YOUNG he is as well!). It's not as though he won his titles when Michael and Ferrari were not competitive!! :roll:

As to Lewis's late run of bad luck: I think we all remember that Michael's (racing) luck was ALSO a big part of his achievement. But even Michael had days when he couldn't BUY a break. Lewis will be back, no doubt. So will Fernando. But when it comes to luck, it looks like Lewis is one of the 'golden' ones and Fernando (like Kimi) is rather like the guy in the song: if he didn't have bad luck, he wouldn't have any luck at all!

For now, though, we fans are INCREDIBLY lucky to get to see a grid that has SIX or SEVEN drivers capable of running away with any given race!! I mean Fernando, Kimi, Lewis, Felipe, Robert K., Jarno T. & Nico R. When was the last time THAT was the case??

Oh, I know, I know, Heikki's record is as good as Lewis's and Nico's --so is Quick Nick's. But I think of them as more like D.C. and Rubens: drivers who CAN win when things are perfect, but not one that WILL win --even when the tyres are graining and pieces of the car are falling off! :burnout:

:cheers: Jim Watt
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Post by jido » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:01 pm

I am not sure that Fernando, Nico and Trulli exactly have race-winning cars at the moment. And I invite you to reserve your jugement on Heikki until the last legs of the season-- personally I am rather optimistic.

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Post by Jim Watt » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:53 am

:D Greetings jido! I, too, am an optimist. So much so that I don't believe a racing driver needs, necessarily, to be driving the best car on the grid in order to win.

For instance, at Australia, where his team-mate Lewis WAS, arguably, in the fastest car and, in fact, WON, Heikki, whose car should have been, according to the Ron, IDENTICALLY prepared (if not set up), was only FIFTH. :roll:

And he was BEHIND Fernando (in the much less good Renault) and Nico (in the definitely much less good, Williams) AND Nick (in the pretty-good BMW). :roll: :roll: :roll:

Both Ferrari's out of the running; the McLarens should have swept the points--but Fernando smelled blood and so did Nico and Nick.

Maybe Heikki will come out of the slump and, if he's your fav, I hope he does. But I am a little skeptical, still. :alright:

Optimistic, yes. but skeptical, too.

Jim Watt
My Racing Gods: Fangio, Vukovich; Senna & Mears --all racers all the time; graceful winners & generous in defeat, but never giving up!!

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Post by jido » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:09 am

Point well taken. Oh well, my favourites also include Jarno Trulli and Sebastien Bourdais. Heikki happens to drive the fastest car :)

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Post by Jim Watt » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:58 am

jido:

I have LONG been a Trulli supporter! He drives BEAUTIFULLY. Reminds me of 'Professor' Prost. And he has (like Mark Webber) never really had the BEST equipment. :D

Maybe Toyota are (at long last) coming out of the woods?? After all, they're even pushing in the NASCAR Sprint and Cup series!! :D

And Sebastian Bourdais! :burnout: I have been quiet about him because he's coming from the American Open Wheel Champ Car series and so I expect people to be surprised by him and I don't want to jinx him by waving the old flag too noticeably. Americans, you know, have to keep their voices DOWN in F1.

Jim Watt :wave: :cheers:
My Racing Gods: Fangio, Vukovich; Senna & Mears --all racers all the time; graceful winners & generous in defeat, but never giving up!!

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Post by F1greyhound » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:29 am

I think that NICK is the most advanced driver at the moment simply for finding a proper level of aggression which he seemed to lack in previous seasons when he didnt have a proper car. Maybe last year when he fought with the 2 fastest cars occasionally brought about the change for him, plus the great pressure created by ROBERTs crude speed. I think that the last GP was one of his very best even if he could finish just 4th, I feel there is a lot to come from him this year including a 1st GP win.

HEIKKI has also come on for the occasion and showed some great manoeuvres this year already. He doesnt seem to be much off LEWIS pace...

Other than that I like JARNO very much both for his driving and his personality but he was beaten fairly and squarely by FERNANDO when in the same car and RALF was most times quicker in the races so I think he belongs to the next best group. The same applies for FISICO.

Then there are other talents who should not be disregarded, e.g. SEBASTIAN V. while ADRIAN looked stronger last year.

By the way JAYVEE, I certainly dont disregard FERNANDO - skillwise there is no one better out there at the moment.....I just think he should have kept his cool last year, maybe like MIKA did when DAVID was allowed to challenge him in his second WDC season.
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Post by jido » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:47 am

Jim Watt wrote:jido:

I have LONG been a Trulli supporter! He drives BEAUTIFULLY. Reminds me of 'Professor' Prost. And he has (like Mark Webber) never really had the BEST equipment. :D

Maybe Toyota are (at long last) coming out of the woods?? After all, they're even pushing in the NASCAR Sprint and Cup series!! :D
Yeah it always trips me to see him on a trajectory... He is a bit like Michael. Though he may have relied too much on his natural talent while M. was working hard.

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